The Kartvelian Dilemma
Why is Georgia in all of the Pan-European edits?
Ever since Drumf the Orange Peach decided to nuclearly bomb Ukraine in thanks to Vladimir Putin for rigging the 2016 and 2024 election, I have been seeing many Euronationalists or ‘Pan-Europeans’ get uppity on every site. I had seen some of their edits before, which are often stolen and whitewashed WN edits. Some of these people really are European Nationalists, which requires wanting to preserve the European race and its subgroups, and the revolutionary civilization these peoples collectively fostered. But most of these people are deranged NAFO types whose loyalty lies not with Europe, but with the previous American uniparty occupying regime in Europe, that worked for decades to promote American-style woke leftism and race-communism in Europe (which is now open knowledge thanks to the USAID leaks) and collaborated heavily with the USSR in disassembling European empires.
But something keeps happening, which causes me to twitch and tweak for a second until I go about my day and nearly forget it ever happened. They keep hamfisting Georgia, and sometimes Armenia and Azerbaijan in there. Have I gone insane? It’s called… The European union. You know… The continent that ends at the Mediterranean, the Urals, and the Caucasus. And Georgia is on the other side of the Caucasus. Like… No whats, no buts, no coconuts. Take a look at this map. The caucasus is Georgia’s northern border. Only a small chunk of Azerbaijan, which is not even ethnically Azeri, is in Europe, and Armenia isn’t even touching the border of a European country.
Georgians do not come from Europe either. They do not speak an Indo-European language, they speak a Kartvelian language. The only Georgians who speak an Indo-European language are the Ossetians, the distant descendants of the Iranic Alans who once rode about Europe on their trusty seeds. In fact, it seems that Georgians are indigenous to Georgia. They are both geographically and genetically intermediate between the Maykop (Darkveti-Meshoko being ancestral to Maykop) Culture and the possibly Hurro-Urartian Kura-Araxes Culture.
It was historically theorized that Hurro-Urartian is distantly related to Kartvelian, but I don’t think this is a common theory anymore. If anything, it is more commonly believed that it is related to Northeast Caucasian — Chechen, Dagestani, those sorts of languages. This makes historical sense, as before the Turkic invasions Azerbaijan was known to host Northeast Caucasian speakers. They still survive today as the Udi people.
I decided to run some tests of genetic distance between Armenians and Georgians, and nearby populations. Just to clarify, f2 measures total differences in allele frequencies between two populations, while Fst measures the differences between two populations as a fraction of total genetic variation within both populations. In other words, Fst is measuring how much of the variation within a sample of two populations can be attributed to group differences, rather than individual differences.
#Fst Distances:
# A tibble: 14 × 4
pop1 pop2 est se
<chr> <chr> <dbl> <dbl>
1 Armenian.HO Assyrian.HO 0.00312 0.000333
2 Armenian.HO Greek.HO 0.00386 0.000279
3 Armenian.HO Hungarian.HO 0.00974 0.000331
4 Armenian.HO Iranian.HO 0.00236 0.000238
5 Armenian.HO Lebanese.HO 0.00371 0.000389
6 Armenian.HO Palestinian.HO 0.00613 0.000268
7 Armenian.HO Syrian.HO 0.00483 0.000415
8 Georgian.HO Assyrian.HO 0.00634 0.000281
9 Georgian.HO Greek.HO 0.00660 0.000220
10 Georgian.HO Hungarian.HO 0.0119 0.000256
11 Georgian.HO Iranian.HO 0.00456 0.000156
12 Georgian.HO Lebanese.HO 0.00723 0.000331
13 Georgian.HO Palestinian.HO 0.0103 0.000194
14 Georgian.HO Syrian.HO 0.00902 0.000365
#f2 Distances:
# A tibble: 14 × 4
pop1 pop2 est se
<chr> <chr> <dbl> <dbl>
1 Armenian.HO Assyrian.HO 0.000913 0.0000961
2 Armenian.HO Greek.HO 0.00112 0.0000810
3 Armenian.HO Hungarian.HO 0.00282 0.0000975
4 Armenian.HO Iranian.HO 0.000688 0.0000697
5 Armenian.HO Lebanese.HO 0.00109 0.000112
6 Armenian.HO Palestinian.HO 0.00179 0.0000795
7 Armenian.HO Syrian.HO 0.00142 0.000122
8 Georgian.HO Assyrian.HO 0.00184 0.0000815
9 Georgian.HO Greek.HO 0.00190 0.0000645
10 Georgian.HO Hungarian.HO 0.00343 0.0000745
11 Georgian.HO Iranian.HO 0.00132 0.0000453
12 Georgian.HO Lebanese.HO 0.00211 0.0000966
13 Georgian.HO Palestinian.HO 0.00301 0.0000573
14 Georgian.HO Syrian.HO 0.00264 0.000107 I find it quite likely that Georgian scores are significantly higher than Armenian scores not due to ancestral differences, but due to Georgians being something of a mountain population, historically more isolated from other groups, and so probably has excess drift. Armenians, on the other hand, are more accurately described as a “hill population” that regularly invaded others and were invaded by others. Both groups, in both metrics, appear to be closer to Iranians and Assyrians than to Greeks, and far closer to all of the other listed populations than to Hungarians (who I think are a good standin for Central Europeans, as there was no German files and only one Pole).
The G25 PCA (yes, G25 is a PCA — it’s just in 25-dimensional, so we can’t see it) produces similar results.
And we can’t forget the classic West Eurasian 2-D PCA… Where both groups certainly do not cluster with Europeans.
So, yeah. Transcaucasian folks, they’re just not European. Georgians do not come from Europe, they do not live in Europe, they do not speak a language from Europe, they are historically irrelevant in European history, and they are not genetically European. You can say, “Oh, well they are our Christian brothers against Islam!” or “Oh, they are influenced by Greek culture!” but those arguments could be made for letting Latin America or Quebec be called European. I do not take any joy in saying this. I like Georgians. I like that thing they make. You know, the bread with the cheese and egg in it. I want to eat that one day. I hope Georgians will forgive me if I come to their country to eat their egg cheese bread food.
With Armenians, the case is both better and worse for them. Better in the sense that Armenians actually do come from Europe (more on that later), and worse in the sense that Armenia is so obviously far from continental Europe that nobody would consider it. I don’t feel as bad distancing Armenians. I don’t hate Armenians, but I have some gripes with them. They eat weird food wrapped in weird leaves, they are superfluously hairy and unctuous, and they wear a lot of cologne despite their women having very large and presumably powerful noses. Maybe it is necessary to overpower all of the other senses coming into their noses, like the smell of methane on Neptune.
My initial impression of Armenians came from the Kardashians, and Anita Sarkeesian. So, you know, pretty bad. I like ancient Armenia, but online Armenian-Americans are wannabe gangsters, always blinged out and tasteless. Probably promoting something stupid like “dropshipping” or “NFTs” from their LA apartment. On several occasions I have heard Armenians talk about “warrior genetics” and I was like… What the fuck are they talking about? When I think of “Armenians at war”, it usually ends in them taking an L. Armenian men are only 5’7 on average, I would imagine those “warrior-genetics” would give them a boost in that department but I guess they don’t want to weaken their agility stat… Armenians peddle the bullshit Out-of-Armenia theory and have such a victim mentality over something that happened over 100 years ago. When I listen to Holy Mountain by System of a Down, I sort of root for the Turks, they make them sound so metal. It’s supposed to be heavy metal, so the pearl-clutching does not work at all with the tone of the genre. But in reality, it was mostly Kurds killing Armenians, not Turks… Yeah, I went there. I skibidi went there.
Don’t think this is me supporting Azeris in that conflict… I don’t really care who comes out on top, frankly. The two sides act like it’s World War 3 though, like everyone has to pick a side. Azeris are not Turks, they are Iranians and Lezgins who speak the wrong language. This is unlike Anatolian Turks, who actually are Turkic to some extent… I will say, I see many Azerbaijani chefs cooking large meat on spit for their whole family in countryside, and drinking this very good looking tea. It calms me, I watch these videos to go to sleep. Other members of the hairy dentist race must take notes…
Caucasus people are, and always have, occupied a middle ground between Europe and the Middle East. Caucasus Hunter Gatherers are often called a “Middle Eastern component”, but this is is not the best way of looking at it. CHG can basically be thought of as something similar to Neolithic Iranian, but with a greater pull towards Europe due to admixture from both Anatolian Hunter-Gatherers (the ancestors of Europe’s farmers) and Ancient North Eurasian (possibly through early Eastern Hunter Gatherers? Hard to tell). It’s not entirely clear when CHG arrived in Eastern Europe, it is possible it was originally the main component in Southern Russia and it was EHGs who invaded the region. Perhaps consider giving this post a read for more on that:
But anyways… Obviously, all Europeans have CHG from the Proto-Indo-Europeans. Middle Easterners do too, there was a surge of CHG and Iran-Neolithic ancestry during the Copper and Bronze Ages in Anatolia, the Levant, and possibly Egypt (based on leaked samples). I suspect this is due to the currently unsampled expansion of Mesopotamian civilization, which was probably some sort of combination of Neolithic Iranian, CHG, and Pre-Pottery Neolithic Levantines. Europeans actually have more shared drift with Caucasus Hunter Gatherers than other populations outside of the Caucasus, interestingly enough.
However, while Caucasus populations have the highest CHG of modern groups, they still have more Iran-Neolithic and Levantine DNA than Europeans.
By the Neolithic, there would no longer be a pure CHG component anywhere. Well, maybe there were some pristine CHG fellows deep in the mountains, but we haven’t found them. We only have a small handful of CHG samples, much less than we have WHG and EHG samples. Anatolian Farmer ancestry may have spread into the Caucasus through the spread of farming and animal husbandry, similar to what happened in Europe. During the Chalcolithic, there was a small migration of Steppe people into the Middle East, contributing very slightly to the genome of the Kura-Araxes group, and leaving behind a small population of steppe-admixed people around the Areni Caves. I was kind of astonished as well by the fact that they had fair hair and eyes.
These were not Armenians, despite living in Armenia. They could not have possibly been Armenians, because Armenians did not exist yet. They were some other group that has since been lost to time. I’ve heard some people suggest they were Gutians, because the Sumerians described Gutians and Subarians as fair-haired (according to some translations), but both of those groups lived in the Zagros mountains. Kind of a ways away.
Armenians almost certainly descend from the Catacomb Culture, the descendant culture of the Yamnaya Culture. The only Indo-European cultures believed to originate directly from Yamnaya are the Greeks, Armenians, and Tocharians, but in the Balkans Yamnaya cultural influence quickly waned in favor of local and Corded Ware type pottery. I have heard that there was a Corded Ware ancestry that made its way into Greece shortly after the initial Proto-Greek invasion, but I don’t know what the evidence of this is. It probably has to do with the Cetina Culture of the Adriatic. Ancient Armenians were much more steppe-rich than their modern counterparts, and were genetically more like modern day North Caucasian populations, maybe intermediate between Georgians and North Caucasians.
Armenians during the late Middle and late Bronze Age were around 20% Steppe on average, 22% in the Early Iron Age, and 17% during Urartian rule. However, there is more variation between sites and individuals than there is between time periods. The diminishment of Steppe DNA in modern, medieval, and classical Armenians likely had both to do with the invasion of the Medes into Armenia, and the Armenian kingdom which followed the collapse of the Persian empire. Under Persia, many Armenian nobles had prestigious positions, and Zoroastrianism heavily influenced the religion of the Persians. Ahura Mazda became Aramazd. Mithra became Mihr. Verethragna became Vahagn. Armenia became even more connected to the wider near east after establishing itself as a regional power during the Hellenistic period. It is possible that the Urartian population was absorbed into the Armenian one, and that’s why modern Armenians are genetically more resemblant to Urartians than to ancient Armenians.
If Georgians have never been European, and Armenians are no longer European in a meaningful sense, then why do Europhiles fetishize Georgians and to a lesser extent Armenians? Well, for Georgians it is pretty obvious — it is a political thing. Georgia is anti-Russia. Ironically, the most European Georgians are the Abkhazian and Ossetian separatists. Armenia though, is not anti-Russia as its main enemy is NATO-aligned, so I don’t know what their deal with Armenia is. Both Georgians and Armenians were overrepresented in the Soviet intelligentsia, beat only in per capita Soviet scientists by Ashkenazi Jews and even beating out ethnic Russians. This is surprising considering the low national IQ of both countries relative to Europeans, Uralics, and Tatars. Both Stalin and Beria were ethnic Georgians, but were heavily russified.
Armenians and Georgians also hold power in Turkish politics, although they may not know it. Here is a map of the birthplaces of important Turkish politicians:
By jove! They’re all from Trezibond… Are Pontic Greek patriots in Qntrol? Is this David Megas Komnenos’s revenge?!?!?
Well… The region had been thoroughly Hellenized, but Turks and Greeks alike from the region descend mostly from the preceding Kartvelian Laz people. Turks from Eastern Turkey are not very Turkish at all, perhaps they descend at least partially from Armenians as well. And yet, almost all of Turkey’s representatives hail from there!?!? This is a conspiracy.
Look at Erdogan. This man is not a Turk, he is a Hurrian. He probably goes home to his family and starts speaking something resembling Orcish or Black Tongue from Lord of the Rings. There have been claims in the past that he was secretly Georgian like Stalin, but he shut them down.
Well, I’ve spent enough time sperging out over this. On a final note… There is a case to be made that Dagestanis are European, but I don’t like it. They are closer to Iranians than Europeans but they are closer to both Greeks and Hungarians than to non-caucasus MENA groups, by a pretty significant margin. Iranians do have European ancestry, obviously, so maybe that’s not a great metric. Dagestanis have a lot of steppe ancestry, more than Ossetians and Chechens. But they are Muslims and they give off terrorist vibes unlike the Tatars. Am I mistaken in thinking this? I don’t mind Khabib. There is this element of the right which talks about how Churkas are super duper brown, and I get it. They are a barbarian mountain race that doesn’t really concern us. But if instead of being Muslims who spoke this weird language and had mustacheless beards, they were Christians who spoke Alanic like the Ossetians and had long scythian mustaches, I have a feeling people would say they are White.
Hey libtard, Georgia is in Dixie. Not Europe!
Stalin, Beria, the Mkhedrioni, etc... much evil has come from the nation of Georgia...